Deep tech product management – an interview with Peter Sunna

The CTO vs Standing Quo sequence research how CTOs problem the present state of affairs at their firm to push it towards a brand new peak … or to put it aside from doom.

“How will we win as an organization?”

🎶Think about there aren’t any silos, it’s simple should you attempt🎶 – is what the legendary Beatle would’ve sung had he learn this interview. Peter Sunna, VP Product at Kognic, explains precisely learn how to break freed from organizational limitations and get your entire firm to work for the great of the product.

Peter jumped proper into the deep finish of the pool when he joined Kognic, a extremely technical startup, to determine the product division for the primary time. 

Drawing from this position in addition to 20 years of different experiences with digital merchandise, Peter shares his ideas on:

• the overlap between expertise and product departments,
• learn how to align the staff of a extremely technical startup to work in direction of the identical targets,
• the key to fruitful collaboration between totally different departments.

Peter will problem you to rethink the technology-product dynamic in your group and provide you with particular steps to enhance it.

About Peter

What’s Kognic as much as?

Jakub Piłucki: Whats up Peter. Hope you didn’t catch a chilly on the Nordic Software program Summit. Did you study any beneficial product insights or get to talk on the occasion?

Peter Sunna: Hello Jakub, thanks for having me. I used to work in Stockholm for 10 years, so the Summit was particular to me as a result of I’ve plenty of previous pals and colleagues there. The main target of the convention was sustainable development, with nice periods on learn how to obtain extra with much less. Luckily, this time I wasn’t talking, so I obtained to chill out and benefit from the occasion.

I simply returned from TechBBQ in Copenhagen, the place everybody was speaking about AI. 

Similar at TechHeads in Kalmar. I left there satisfied that I must rethink the whole lot. After listening to individuals discuss AI in numerous domains, my head virtually exploded from realizing what number of unknowns there are on this space.

What in regards to the Automotive Engineering Expo in Nagoya? How productive was that occasion for Kognic? 

Automotive is massive in Japan in order that market is basically fascinating to us. We obtained to see some variations in comparison with the US, Europe, and even China. In automotive, there are various layers, and firms normally choose the perfect suppliers for every of the horizontal layers of their stack.

Nevertheless, in Japan there’s nonetheless very a lot a “we do the whole lot ourselves” sort of mentality. Since we need to broaden in that market, one in all our main targets was to clarify the chance value of shopping for an answer versus constructing it your self.

Expertise and product overlap

It appears there’s a standard theme after I discuss to individuals at occasions, which is that expertise and product departments are coming collectively. What do you concentrate on the rising overlap between the 2?

To me, product and expertise have all the time overlapped. I’ve all the time labored very carefully with my engineering counterpart. It was by no means “product owns the roadmap, expertise owns the structure”. They will problem me on the roadmap; I can problem them on the tech.

I feel that is the important thing to success. You may have these two distinct roles with totally different tasks, however at any time when issues overlap, you may talk about and are available to new conclusions.

Certainly one of our earlier friends stated that an important factor for each expertise and product leaders is to know one another’s tradeoffs. The CTO ought to perceive why you don’t goal particular buyer segments, and the CPO ought to perceive why some tech decisions aren’t possible. What do you concentrate on it?

We normally discuss dangers once we’re creating options. The usability threat, the worth threat, the feasibility threat, and the viability threat. Tradeoffs must be made in these areas, and you should perceive them.

Say we’re constructing a function and we would like the very best UX for it. That’s a viability threat, and the tradeoff is that the venture may turn out to be too massive to be value it. You’re all the time balancing. 

That’s why I really like having these discussions I discussed. They aid you perceive the tradeoffs and dangers. 

Earlier than you joined Kognic, you had product roles at e-commerce and CMS corporations. How did the technology-product dynamic change if you joined Kognic?

I had no expertise in AI and automotive, and I seen that Kognic was a really technical firm. They constructed a really superior product, however additionally they understood the way it match into processes in automotive.

Coming in to determine a product perform, understanding each the expertise and the automotive processes had been my greatest challenges.

Understanding trade-offs could also be simpler stated than finished given how rapidly each tech and person expectations are evolving. How did you stand up to hurry, and the way do you retain up with the newest developments in an space as advanced as embodied AI?

Earlier than I joined, I learn rather a lot about AI. I had some data from college, however rather a lot has occurred since then. I learn up on the speculation, simply to know the fundamentals earlier than coming into the corporate.

After I joined, I targeted on studying the product and the way it match into automotive workflows, how clients can use our platform for annotations to construct up their knowledge units for coaching AI fashions that energy totally different automotive options. I discovered all I may.

Now, I’m very cautious to dedicate time in my calendar for catching up with business information. So I dedicate at the least 1 hour per day, it’s normally the very first thing I do. Between 7:30 and eight:30, I take a look at what’s occurring, discover expertise developments or take a look at opponents.

There’s a lot occurring in AI each day that it’s simple to get FOMO. As a substitute of stressing about it, simply ensure you dedicate a while each day to find out about it. I’m a giant believer in good habits.

Product in a extremely technical group

Kognic is a really technical group so, in concept, the CTO ought to be the king, and there is likely to be a “construct it and they’re going to come” angle. And but, on the identical time, we continually hear from our specialists that everybody desires to be product-oriented. What’s your tackle that?

Two years in the past, earlier than I joined, Kognic was constructed round autonomous improvement groups that knew in regards to the technique, gathered their very own context, and made choices themselves. There was no product division then. 

I feel that has been working rather well for Kognic, however then scale turned an issue. What works with 50 individuals may not work with 100 individuals. It turned troublesome to align the groups to concentrate on essentially the most impactful issues. Not simply improvement groups, however gross sales and advertising. Is gross sales really providing the factor you’re constructing? Is the market positioning right?

Since we began constructing the product division, we’ve been specializing in how we will win as an organization. I discuss it rather a lot in my product staff. All of it begins with figuring out your reply to the query “how will we win?” When you’ve that, and your staff understands it, you get significantly better discussions between expertise and product.

That is an important factor for the product perform to determine: how will we win as an organization?

This helps us perceive what’s differentiating us available in the market. We will present the worth clearly and entice extra clients.

At Kognic, Product can focus extra on the core points of the technique, on how we win, somewhat than figuring out precisely what the staff ought to be constructing. This was an enormous “aha!” second for me.

A extremely good definition of the product supervisor’s job is that it’s “coordinating actions throughout the group to make the product profitable”. So that you ensure that the corporate is aligned on the technique, engineering is constructing the proper factor, advertising is highlighting how we’re differentiating, gross sales is providing the proper worth, and so forth.

Having that technique, you may body the dialog in a extra productive means. You’re not simply speaking about “what can we construct?” You begin with the technique, and say “that is how we need to win, how can this expertise assist us do this?”

Okay, so how do you align on product technique?

The technique retains altering as a result of we’re a startup. We pivot on a regular basis, however that’s additionally what I really like about it.

Certainly one of my targets becoming a member of Kognic was to stabilize issues. I don’t suppose I’ve succeeded with that for the primary yr, we had been struggling to search out our means ahead. We had been capable of get new income however didn’t have a transparent long-term path. The roadmap would change fairly steadily.

The roadmap is all the time a troublesome matter as a result of it reveals you the way nicely you’re executing on your small business technique.

Everytime you begin constructing a roadmap that helps your technique, I feel it’s essential to consider the roadmap as primarily a communication device. It’s a strategy to clarify what it’s that you simply need to construct.

It’s crucial for the roadmap to indicate the place we would like groups to be concerned. If we’ve got finished job of framing the technique, the important thing outcomes that we’re searching for, the methods we need to differentiate – it turns into simpler to construct that roadmap.

For some groups, you may simply say that we need to improve income, after which they’ll take that aim and map out the primary issues to unravel. Different groups will not be as mature and can want extra steering. Maybe, you should determine the precise drawback to unravel, after which they’ll do job of fixing it.

Your product is annotated datasets for the embodied AI business. How essential is knowledge to your inner resolution making?

We’re focusing rather a lot on productiveness, we need to be the best annotation platform for video or radar knowledge. One of many predominant measurements we’re doing now’s how productive annotators in our product may be. If it’s a picture with automobiles in it, how rapidly can they confirm the right variety of automobiles?

We wish our annotators to be as productive as doable. Their productiveness comes right down to many various components. One issue is how good our device is. Do they battle to make use of it? One other is our course of for onboarding and guiding annotators. Are we making the proper batches for them to work as successfully as doable?

In order that’s one instance of how we use knowledge internally. It’s very advanced to measure productiveness precisely, however doing so helps us make higher choices.

What knowledge pursuits you most when taking a look at the remainder of the business?

There aren’t many productiveness metrics for annotations on the market that we will evaluate with. However we will evaluate our charges, i.e. what we cost for annotations in our platform and what the opponents cost.

Recommendation from a product chief

What recommendation would you give to a product chief, one which’s about to enter a extremely technical group like Kognic for the primary time?

Construct a extremely sturdy relationship with the technical chief.

To start with, I nonetheless thought our roles had been divided. They handle the expertise, and I make certain we’ve got technique.

Now I see that these areas are carefully related. When you’ve relationship, you’ll have fruitful collaboration, and it’ll positively have an effect on your groups.

What in regards to the different facet of the equation – what ought to the CTO do to get essentially the most out of collaborating with the CPO in a extremely technical firm?

Personally I’d actually like for the CTO at a brand new firm to problem me on the technique half. And to have the ability to clarify the technique to their staff. 

So suggestions and communication are the keys to tech-product dynamic, proper? 

Once I was beginning my profession, I heard rather a lot in regards to the significance of communication. Now I feel that possibly it’s not nearly communication however about collaboration. 

My capability to cooperate with the CTO interprets to the remainder of the group – how nicely the PMs collaborate with engineering managers and design leaders, and so forth. I feel all of it begins with collaboration on the highest degree.

How a lot ought to Product fear about Advertising and marketing and Gross sales in a corporation like Kognic?

One of many issues I’m seeing is that the product position is turning into extra tied to advertising. 

You may have to have the ability to clarify the worth of what you’re constructing and the way it’s totally different, which may be very a lot a advertising exercise. Nevertheless it’s so important to the way you win that it turns into one of many key issues for product individuals to work on.

And what about innovation and R&D? Say, the product chief actually desires to face out available in the market, however the technical chief desires to interrupt new technological floor. How do you compromise on this state of affairs?

We will’t simply be modern for the sake of innovation. We have to align on what’s the aim that we’re working in direction of. That can information us.

If we’ve got agreed on how we need to win, it’s simpler to debate innovation. From this attitude, we will body innovation as one thing that helps us present how proficient we’re at tech. It doesn’t must turn out to be the subsequent massive guess that we’re taking as a corporation.

Sources

Are there any sources that you could possibly advocate for the leaders who need to study extra in regards to the technology-product relationship?

Lenny’s Podcast – loads of nice recommendation there.

I additionally talked about the significance of habits earlier, and “Atomic Habits” is a good e book I can advocate right here.

Relating to tech-product collaboration particularly, I all the time advocate the “Innovator’s Dilemma” and “Crossing the Chasm”. They’re fairly previous, however they’re important studying.

What’s subsequent? Three actions for CTOs to take

Peter proves that constructing a fancy product in a quickly altering startup surroundings doesn’t need to be a continuing battle – much more so in the case of deep tech product administration.

Nevertheless, if you wish to tighten the connection between Product and Tech, irrespective of how deep tech your group is, bury the hatchet and:

• Collaborate, don’t simply talk – all of it begins on the highest ranges however has a ripple impact on the entire group, together with the roadmap.
• Study about totally different points of your product, not simply those you’re specializing in.
• Construct your technique round your organization’s reply to the query, “How will we win?”

Product leaders will not be your enemies – the truth is, they are often your biggest allies in your organization’s journey.